Four The Win
There are laying systems in abundance these days. Some are good, some not so good, but every now and again you come across one that turns out to be absolutely exceptional and that’s exactly what happened to us this month.
When I first discovered Four The Win I was instantly impressed with both the simplicity of the system and the fact that it concentrates on hot favourites whose average odds are just 1/1. On top of that it takes just 10 minutes a day to find the selections, so straight away I could see we had an easily operated, potentially profitable, system on our hands.
This is what I had to say about it prior to starting our test:
I’m a big fan of the old ”Keep It Simple Stupid” adage when it comes to horse racing systems, because if a system has too many rules it’s almost certainly been backfitted and if this is the case, it’s highly unlikely that what happened in the past will continue to prove profitable in the future.
That’s a cold hard fact I’m afraid, so if you ever purchase a system and find that it’s practically unworkable in practice because of the number of rules involved, do yourself a favour and treat it with extreme caution. In the vast majority of cases it will save you time, effort and expense.
Someone who agrees with me on this is Joe from Four The Win.
Joe’s created a horse racing laying system that’s based on solid form-based principles, that’s simple in the extreme and that targets runners at the bottom end of the odds range, so unlike many of the laying systems I see nowadays, the odd winner here or there is never going to wipe out your betting bank. It’s a very selective system that quite simply highlights runners with a weak profile in races that are competitive enough to warrant taking them on.
This is exactly how bookmakers operate and if it’s your goal to succeed as a betting exchange layer, you could do worse than follow the time-proven principles of traditional bookmaking.
Joe’s system comes packaged in a short, well-written, 16 page ebook that explains everything you need to know clearly and concisely. You’ll know exactly what your selections are likely to be the evening before racing and the rules of the system are all very straightforward.
I’ll be testing Four The Win for the next month with a £1000 starting bank and I’ll be aiming to win £25 on each bet, using a non-aggressive version of the Fibonacci staking plan (as is advised in the book) to recoup losses from winning bets.
We then tested Four The Win for the full month of March (you can check the full results here) and to say we were impressed with what happened would be an understatement!
This is what Craig said when he wrote his final review:
Well, we’ve come to the end of the road for our months test of Four The Win and it’s been a fascinating month. When I first saw the system I was a little sceptical. There are only four simple rules to be followed, and although I could see the logic behind the system, I was a little apprehensive that the system would work at the prices we were laying at. Include a loss recovery staking plan and I had visions of money going down the tube - oh how wrong was I???
I have been astounded by the performance of Four The Win, and I do mean absolutely astounded. In the 30 days of testing we made 16 points profit, and when you consider the average odds we were laying at were evens, and that a large amount of selections were actually odds on, that is simply amazing. We returned a 41.5% profit on our bank, which is a huge ROI and again at the odds is, quite simply, outstanding!
Bare in mind that this is a system that will take you ten minutes a day to find your selections and you have what must be one of the most simple, straightforward, yet ultimately rewarding systems I have seen.
It’s no secret that I’m a big fan of laying, and some of the systems I’ve used in the past have had good success laying at the higher end of the odds market, but at that end you will be laying over the odds and a winner can cause a bit of a dent in your profits, but with Four The Win the odds are almost always within a couple of percent of official SP and often will beat SP because its all hot, hot favourites we’re laying.
So, to sum up, Four The Win is a laying system that lays at an average price of evens, uses a sensible loss recovery plan (which only twice did we go as far as the 3rd bet), has a strike rate in the region of 70% (meaning it will profit at level stakes) and is incredibly easy to operate. Add in the fact that Joe has provided us with excellent customer service, offers a tipping email service, and was only too willing to answer any of our queries and I have no choice but to give Four The Win….
…..FIVE OUT OF FIVE!
Now, some of you might look at the 16 points profit we generated and not be overly impressed with that, but in terms of return on investment this has exceeded everything we’ve ever reviewed on here multiple times over. Keep in mind that many laying systems target runners at 5/1, 6/1, or even 8/1, so your liabilities are 5x, 6x, or 8x higher than with Four The Win. This means that if you were operating on a liability basis you could effectively use 5x, 6x, or 8x larger stakes and when you look at it that way, the returns from this system are absolutely HUGE!
I can honestly say that I haven’t come across anything as appealing as this before. It pinpoints short priced favourites who lose with amazing accuracy and takes just 10 minutes a day to find them, so if you’ve been searching for something that’s extremely easy to operate, profitable in the extreme, and that won’t have you quaking in your boots every time one of your lay bets goes and wins, then look no further than Four The Win.
This one is the business - I love it!
Until next time,
Online Betting Exposed
Happy days! I bought the Four The Win after I got your email at 12.30pm. I checked for bets and found two in 15 minutes, I’ll get faster in time! I layed the first one at 1.75 to win £50 and it got beat!
The system is paid for on the first bet!!!
8/11 SP beat!!
I have a question about Four The Win. When do I need to check the odds before I can place a bet? Could I do it anytime during the day or is it one of these market based systems?
Thanks in advance.
@ Jools - well done!
@ James - it isn’t market based so you can still operate it if you work during the day or whatever.
I agree with you, Paul! Joe from Four the win is simple the best! I have made some profits from him. Also the support is top class!
I have unsubscribe his email service because I dont have time to do in the day time when I wait for the odds drop down BUT I am going to buy his ebook soon.
Everything is great with Four the win so far!
Jono
You shouldn’t need to monitor the odds if you don’t have time Jono - just fire a bet in on Betfair and if it’s matched you’re cool
Yes Paul……Some day it is more than 2.3. That was why I cant monitor them during the day.
So the main reason that I can bet in the evening when I get his ebook.
Jono
Jono,
You can place your order in Betfair for whatever odds you want and then just leave them, if they get matched then great and if not, then that’s fine too.
Hi Craig,
Really? How can I do that in Betfair? Show me where is it…
Thanks,
Jono
Jono,
Just put in whatever odds you are willing to offer for the bet and that’s it. If not matched straight away Betfair keeps your bet active right up until the off. You can even chose to keep it in play as well.
Thanks Craig…I never knew this.
If I put the odds, for example, 2.10 odds. If the odds match to 2.10 then it will automatically bet for me. If it is not match then the bet will off itself and not lose money?
Is this correct? Just clarify for myself buddy
Jono
Exactly right Jono, you put the bet in at the odds you want and if the price doesn’t come that low then the bet will be cancelled at the off and the money stuck back in your account.
Great thanks Craig!
Great review Craig&Paul,and results to match!!
One minor problem I can see here though when using the staking plan with the system is that results will have to be monitored after each selection on the day(if there is more than 1 selection),in case stakes have to be increased after a loser.As I am at work during the day and away from the computer I would be unable to do this so can you suggest any other possibilities?I see on the website that level stakes also produce a profit,but nowhere near what the staking plan produces,so not really ideal.Apart from that a great little system,though 3 losers in a row would dent the bank somewhat.
Yeah, I see what you mean Andrew. I said above that you could just leave the bets on Betfair early and wait to see if they were matched, but like you say that doesn’t take into account the staking plan.
You could use something like Grey Horse Bot to “roughly” follow the same staking plan, or when there is multiple selections in one day you could phone in a bet if you get the chance. Betfair have reduced their phone service minimum bet level from £50 a bet to £2 a bet now, so it’s more reasonable than it was before. There isn’t often more than two selections in one day either though, often just the one.
Hi Andrew,
What you can do in that situation where you work and there is more than 1 selection per day is to put the first selection on using the staking plan, so either 1 to 5 points after the last bet and then for the rest of the selections level stake.
That partly overcomes the problem though I appreciate is not ideal…
Thanks for the quick replies Paul& Joe.
Some good suggestions there,so will have to work out what is the best way for me to go.Not really a problem,more of a nuisance!!Thanks again.
Paul/Craig
Which system are you using and which staking plan.
All the best
Andy
Andy,
For the test we used Option B, and the staking plan that comes with it - the gentle Fibonacci idea.
I haven’t seen this particular method, but if a staking plan is involved and I can not monitor results, I use a horizontal staking plan instead of a vertical one.
To explain. A vertical staking plan is where you go from race 1, to race 2 to race 3 etc. This requires you to be at the computer.
What I do when this is not possible is transfer the increased stake to the following day, so if race 1 loses, increase your stake on race 1 of the next day. Similarly with race 2 & 3 etc. It means you have to run more than one thread, but you don’t have to be at home.
I hope that makes sense.
That does make sense Ant and I think it would work quite well with this too.
Good thinking!
Good idea ant.
I’m doing very nicely indeed with Four The Win. Great recommendation!
Is Four the Win good for Australian racing? Thanks Rhonda
@ Rhonda - it’s intended for UK horse racing, so I couldn’t tell you if it would work for AU racing. I don’t know much about that to be honest. You could send Joe an email and ask him about it.
@ Jeremy - I presume you got matched on the first of yesterday’s selections after saying that. I did too, as did Craig, but Joe hasn’t counted it as a qualifier in his own results. That’s possibly because the odds were quite close, but it was definitely trading below 2.3. It’s good to see he’s playing down the results like that - it means our own profits will probably be even higher!
Paul,
I was just looking through the results of Four the Win.
Are all the bets shown as there is a gap between Day 11 & Day 23?
Regards,
JohnV
Hi John,
All of the dates were correct, and the bets, but Craig had put the date in the part where he says Day 1/2/3 etc. instead of the correct day number, if that makes sense. I’ve corrected it now.
To clarify, there was 20 days with bets in the 30 day period we were testing it.
~ Paul
Hi Rhonda,
I have not had any customers (that I know of anyway) use FTW for Australian racing so couldn’t tell you how effective it would be. You can ofcourse use it for British racing if based in Australia though through Betfair…
I imagine the principles behind it would result in a similar way in Australia as the UK and Irish racing.
Joe
Yes I did get matched yesterday Paul and I made another £100 on top of that today. It’s a great little system!
How good is this? The profits are still rolling in every day. Has anyone else noticed that NONE of the potential qualifiers that are slightly over 2.3 win either?
Jeremy:
Hi! When I originally tested the system with different parameters I found that using the selections over 2.3 produced lower profits in the long run due to higher liabilities. Even though many potential selections over 2.3 do lose, when you get a losing streak of say 3 and the odds are for example 2.8, it starts to eat away at your profit…
Hi
Sorry for jumping in on the wrong discussion , but i noticed that you have removed the feedback on ‘ Refuse to lose’ system . I also noticed that the results were not updated for the last few days . Has the system crashed or what is the reason ?
Hi James,
The comments on Refuse To Lose are still open - go here:
http://www.onlinebettingexposed.com/refuse-to-lose/
Also, there’s been no bet for the past few days, but there are a couple of races for me to keep an eye on today, so there will be an update tonight - let’s hope its a good ‘un
I only started using Four The Win this week and I’m impressed with the initial results. The selection criteria looks good and I particularly like the staking plan it uses.
Guys can I just take this opportunity to thank you for this site, and in particular for introducing me to Four the Win.
I have never been a fan of laying because after a good run of losers and lots of profit, a couple of winners wipe it out but Four the Win has been a revolution. I bought it last week after reading the test you guys did and all I’ve had is profit from it! Sure, I’ve found the odd winner but because the odds are so low its had little affect.
Guys I am forever in your debt please keep up the good work!
I finally got round to purchasing Four the win from this site,and only had chance to quickly look through the cards today,but couldn’t find any qualifiers.Can anyone please confirm this was the case.
I am also interested in using GHB to place my selections as I am away at work all day.If I use the GHB staking what would be the best way to get somewhere near the staking plan advised with Four the win.The only way I can see it is to set the staking to 1(thus recovering the full amount after a loss).However,this could get out of hand with a bad losing run.
I must say thanks to Ant in an earlier post for his staking suggestion,and although I can see this would work,profit/loss figures would ultimately be different from the Four the win figures and I want to replicate that as much as possible.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.Back to the footie now!!!
If you are talking about System A, I had no selection this week yet.
@ Andrew - there was a few possible selections today, but I don’t think any of them hit the right odds range of 1.7 to 2.3.
I think what you say about Grey Horse Bot is correct. That probably would be the best way to automate it. Saying that though, there isn’t normally more than two selections a day that qualify, often just one, so most of the time you could probably do this manually without too much trouble.
@ Philip - thanks for your kind feedback. Sorry, I hadn’t noticed your post until now.
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
Joe from Four The Win has told me that he is taking Four The Win off the market around the beginning of next month. I don’t have an exact date yet, but I know it will be before the 11th May, so if you have been sitting on the fence unsure of whether to buy or not, now is the time - before it’s too late!
It does seem there’s a bit of a spate of this with Matt taking Trainer Flat Stats off the market as well but I think it’s a pretty clear sign that these guys know how good their products are and want to protect their customers prices.
Hi Andrew
I have tried GHB in the past but changed to Market Feeder Pro because greater versatility for programme conditions and staking plans. I don’t believe will be difficult to programme FTW into MFP.
If you are interested, please contact me at ant.menendez@gmail.com
Antonio
I haven’t tried this yet Antonio, but the Grey Horse Bot also has Excel integration now so I’m sure it could be used to create any kind of automatic triggers you please.
Thanks Antonio for the offer.I will see how things go for the time being with my current subscription to GHB still being in force.I remember using Market feeder pro with another program I was running in the past and it does offer some good stuff!!
Speak to you soon.
I ‘think’ that the Excel integration in Grey Horse Bot should enable us to do anything that MF does now. I still need to look it properly, but I’m sure that’s the case.
Another day, another dollar for Four The Win. I’ve increased my stakes to £150 a go now and got another two beat today at 2.3 and 1.8. 4/6 one of them was at the off. £300 profit today, very nice!
I saw the message about Joe taking it off the market. Why doesn’t that surprise me?
Thanks again for sending me in the direction of this!
Hi Paul & Craig
Based on the horses you selected and checking FTW website, I assume that you were using option B for your selections?
Regards
Mark
Yes, that’s right Mark - it was option B we used so it covered all of the selections.
REMOVAL OF FOUR THE WIN - UPDATE
I spoke to Joe yesterday and he is removing Four The Win from sale on the 2nd May, so you have about five days to grab your copy before it’s too late.
please can you can you tell wich system is the better on you opinion???
FOUR TO WIN OR TRAINER FLAT STATS?
Thank you vey much
Boy oh boy. Havn’t we all taking a bashing over the last few days with FTW. Unfortunately I was only around 2 weeks into the system with wins of £120 before we had a 5 point loss today. That’s £220 losses and I stopped at the first loss of the day. The rest of the horses (except the last one) all won too meaning a really bashing. Shame really. Looked so positive. Sods law though.
@ Frank, it’s difficult to say, one is laying and one is backing, so it really depends on what you prefer.
@ Andy, yeah, that’s really unfortunate, I’ve had plenty time to build my profits up so although it’s been a sore one I’m still comfortably in profit. I’d not give up on it though Andy, this is either the first or at worst the second time it’s happened in a year. If that trend continues I’ll be a happy bunny
@Andy
=( Me too, i just bought it last 2 weeks ago. And i am using OPTION A only. So, it’s not looking really good. We must follow the rules according to the FTW. =)
Well, i am still positive on this system. Hope this is just a bad smoke of the system. After this, it will be winning till end of the year…
CHEERS EVERYONE !
@ Andy & Raikon,
I feel for the new users to FTW who have maybe only started using the system in the last month or so and have encountered this loss early on. I’m sure it will dent your confidence with the system.
Luckily for long time users we have built up enough profits to cover this loss and then some. It’s good to see comments of new users who can see this as just a short term set back and will continue to use the system as you will be the ones that profit long term.
Those with a short term mentality who have now given up with it will likely give up on any system that has a bad run and therefore never be profitable as all systems do have a bad run at some point.
I have every faith that your investment in FTW will pay off…
Joe
FTW
I was thinking the same im really down on four the win at the moment started with £400 now im down too £200 hopefully its short term.
I hope you all stuck with Four The Win today, I’ve had three bets and won all three, banking myself a fair chunk of profit
I know it was a hard start for some of you who’d only just bought the system, but I think the lesson is to stick with it. We’ve said before that the ROI from Four The Win is the best of any system we’ve tested on OBE, and I see absolutely no reason for that to change.
Hope you were on….
11/10, 4/5 and 5/4 all beat. That certainly helped
Joe your credibility is not in question in my opinion. I agree that an early loss dents confidence but I am not giving up on this. I note that you have posted the poor recent result on your site which gives me complete confidence in you. Many rogues would have not posted the results accurately. A rogue you certainly are not and I have every confidence in this. I would encourage everyone to stick with it and look long term and not short term.
Wouldn’t go as far as to say Joe’s not a rogue
Only kidding, another winner for me today, although it did drift before the off so if you didn’t get on early you might have missed it.
@ Andy - Thanks mate.
You’re right, you definitely have to look long term with most betting systems and not for over-night riches and the same is true for FTW. Month on month it profits and even with this bad run both Options are still in profit for April.
I do try to be as transparent as possible as I know there are many rogues out there and hope this goes some way to prove that the results and I am genuine.
@ Craig - Unfortunately I did miss it!
Hi,
Just looking for some advice about when is the best time to choose the FTW selections. I’m really only free the evening before when there don’t seem to be many come up. When do you choose the bets?
Regards
MC
If you use the forecast prices the night before that’ll give you an idea of what might qualify. Alternatively, if you’ve 10 - 15 minutes to spare in the morning that’s probably a better time, as the markets will have settled a bit.
IMPORTANT MESSAGE
I have spoken to Joe this morning, and he has confirmed that Four The Win will be removed from sale today sometime between 9pm and midnight, so this really is the last chance to get your hands on it.
Good day today.
Hello. I just bought the system (so it’s not removed yet) and am looking forward to test it tomorrow. There’s something I don’t understand though. In a few posts here I see mentioned odds of 2.3 while in my copy I read the odds range up to 2.5. Are we speaking about the same system? Thank you
Hi Lynn, I’ve just spoken with Joe, and the version you have downloaded is Four The Win 2. Four The Win has been removed and replaced with a slightly different version that we will be testing on the site soon.
Joe released this version to protect the prices for users of Four The Win and also to provide extra selections as this method should have more qualifiers. Initial testing suggests the results should be similar to those expected by the original method.
Thank you for replying. Just now I am considering something else. If I place my bets some time in the morning and then the qualifier steams below the range just before the off, that’s should be a no bet. So there is a higher risk of a winner in this case and one more reason to place the bets close to the off. Am I right? Thank you
Joe recommends you lay at the specified prices and as long as your bet is between those prices then it’s a qualifier no matter what price it then goes off at….that one has always confused me to be fair, but I’ve followed it and always ended up in profit so hey ho, I’ll not argue
Using ‘Four the Win’ has gotten me some losers since I bought it, but also regularly gets me winners, which lands me back at square one. F’rinstance yesterday (May 9th) Sortita (Goodwood 4.45) , and Karsya (Clonnel 6.55) lost - good, today Melodramatic (Nott 4.10) won - not good , anyway tracing things back to May 1st it seems like much the same snakes & ladders routine.
I’m not so sure about the FTW 2.0, which though was sent me for free, yesterday (May 9th) gave the ok to two winners - Woolcombe Folly at Wincanton 7.20 and Little Lu at Wetherby 6.00, does anyone agree, or am I doing something wrong?
Yours
Simon
Well, my first day and it payed for the book already. I can’t believe that such a simple system could work….
). I entered the 4.10 race at Nottingham at 1.7 and after that the favourite shortened down to 1.56 (SP 4/9) and went to win. From now on I decided I will wait as long as possible before the off to see if the odds move out of range.
I made a mistake though, dragged by your reply to my previous question (not blaming you though. You were sincere and anyway the system has been profitable
Something strange though: I counted 11 qualifiers today, 6 winners and 5 losers. According to what I read, this number seems too high. Did I do something wrong?
Hi Simon
Yep it seems that the results of late have been up and down. At the end of April we had a terrible run and lost the 5 point stake. I got stung again yesterday when the first race won and then the next ones lost. I lost again on a 5 point stake. All selections were in the range when I placed my bet although a couple either went out before the off or steamed in. Its a bit frustrating at the moment. Not sure if the results on the site will reflect this as I know that Joe tends to leave his bets until a few moments before the off.
Simon, i take it you have not lost anything using this system so far? Joe is a genuine guy who will reply to your questions, this is a difficult period at the moment for laying which is borne out in the results. Overall the results are excellant, my advise is to stick with it and be brave with the stakes, it will pay!
I think up and down results are only to be expected at this time of year. I caught a couple of the winning selections today, but I didn’t get to the 5 point selection that you did Andy, and it worked out for me today winning 2 from 2.
I can’t say it any better than Paul just, has - stick with it and it’ll see you alright!
That’s strange, I had two qualifying selections today one lost & one won.
Maybe I’m doing it wrong !
Jacq
Hello. I just realised that I did make a mistake yesterday, sorry when checking the qualifiers. It turned out well for me, but still it was a mistake. The total number of qualifiers was 8, so the final outcome would have been a little negative with 5 winners and 3 losers. Today it was recovered at the 1st race, and the total number of qualifiers was 4 with 1 winner and 3 losers, so fully positive. Can anyone confirm, please? I remind you that I’m using 4 the win 2. Thank you
Jacq, is it FTW 2 you are using or the original?
For Four The Win, I had three potential selections today, two qualified and one didn’t. Both qualifying bets were successful (Ascot 1:45 - Jamboretta and Down Patrick 3:15 - Bidalia)
If its the original version you’re using then please feel free to email me and I’ll compare selections with you.
Lynn, how are you finding FTW2? I’ve been watching the results and they seem quite impressive, as I’ve said we’ll be running a test on it soon.
Craig,
I’m using FTW 2 so that would explain it….Thank’s
Lynn,
I had the same amount of selections as you for the day before yesterday with 5 going on to come 1st. & 3 winning lays for us. But a couple of them didn’t show up on the results page of FTW 2 so I’m wondering if I got them wrong.
Jacq
You probably didn’t get them wrong, it could just be a case of you getting matched and Joe not depending on what time you place your bets.
From what I’ve seen, I think leaving it late is the best option, but that’s not anyway guaranteed.
Joe is on holiday for a week I think now, so maybe ask him his opinion when he gets back.
Dear Paul Pro and Andy,
Thank you for your response.
I haven’t lost anything I hadn’t won previously. Though I’d rather have kept it , but I suppose you’ve been there. I know Joe is genuine, or else I wouldn’t have written in to find out if anyone else was experiencing difficulties. After all, if you really reckon you’ve been ‘had’ its nothing to boast about. Ja?.
Simon, if you look at the results page on Four The Win the graphs there show you exactly how the stats are looking for the year so far. It did take a dip for a couple of weeks, but it didn’t take long to get it back and the overall trend in the graphs has been growing all the time.
I am also using FTW V2.0, which I purchased because of the glowing review.
It is a very up and down system, or “snakes and ladders” as Simon put it. Although having those kinds of fluctuations in your bankroll can be difficult you need to take a long term view. The majority of your profits comes from consecutive winners in a cluster, but in between them comes the grinding of doing little better than break even.
I would like Joe to provide some clarification on when would be the best time to place your bets, or what he has found works best for him. If you wait too long then there is a good chance that you’ll miss that horse that drifts out (good sign!), but if you get on too early then more often than not your horse will continue shortening in price and go on to leave the rest of the field in it’s dust!
Hello. Yesterday’s last pick was a winner and today I had 4 picks. The first 3 were winners, but I was so lucky that I waited too long for the bet at Exeter 3.20, so I wasn’t matched. With that one I would have lost the whole 4 row. Can anyone confirm today it’s been the 1st big loss for FTW2?
Simon, i did find the staking plan a bit scary, so i use my own staking plan where i bet to 10% liability of bank ie: 1000 stake = 100 liability, Next bet Bank 10 % liability and so on, reset bank to 1000 at start of month and pocket profits from previous month. A lot gentler in my experience. Hope that helps. P PRO
Hi Lynn,
After the three winning horses (losing lay bets) in a row on the 13th, one drifted out and it lost (but you could get on it early) and the race immediately after it the horse lost as well, so no big loss yet!
I am currently up to my 4th bet of the system again after a loss on the 13th and two losing lays on the 14th where the favs both got up: one by a neck and the other after making a mistake on the final hurdle! In a frustrating incident, Artless satisfied all criteria bar one so was not able to be used. A shame since he fell very early in his race.
Sigh. Not exactly the most profitable patch for this system.
Lynn… Yes… i have the same selection as you…
If Paul allow, i would like to get your msn , so we can discuss and confirm on which races to be place.
LF I had Artless as a bet?? Are you using FTW2?
@ Paul Pro - I tested your staking plan with the results displayed on the site and I’m afraid it won’t work. From a starting bank of 1000, after 65 bets the total is 768.98. The highest point was 1428 after 4 bets, then other lower peaks occurred, but after that the performance rapidly decreases
@ Raikon - I don’t mind giving my MSN but not here in public. I would be glad if someone suggested how.
Hi,
I had four losing bets in a row over the last couple of days. On the 13th. 8.55 Killarney. Solwhit, then on the 14th. Exeter 1.50 Winsley Hill, Font. 3.35 Apocalozzo & Perth. 9.10. Mr. Jack Daniels.
It’s important to keep going though all systems go through bad patches soon enough the good patches will come.
Jacq.
Lynn, you can email it to us through the contact section and we can pass it on - we won’t abuse it honestly
Jacq, I couldn’t agree more with you. Losing runs happen in any system no matter how good it is. Those that stick with it profit at the end of the day and those that don’t move onto another system until it hits a losing run and then change again. Once you’ve got a good wee system (which Four The Win is) then stick with it through the good and the bad….lecture over
@ Craig
Yes, I am on FTW V2. Artless was not able to be used because it did not quite meet the qualifying criteria.
@ all
I am perhaps more fortunate than some others around. I had exactly the same selections as Jacq up to Apocalozzo and three losses in a row. Then the Betfair outage happened, and since there is no guarantee that the site would be up and since I do this during very late night/early morning I decided to call it a day.
I gave my MSN through the contact .
@ Jacq
I agree about your 1st three selection, but my 4th one was 4.30 Exeter - Ocean Du Moulin, which made up for my previous losses. Mr. Jack Daniels didn’t qualify for me.
I think it could be useful if the ones interested kept in touch through MSN or something similar, to compare each other’s qualifiers.
Hi,
I’ve just been looking at the results section of the four the win website and comparing the FTW2 results with FTW1. Although there are a lot more selections, the losing runs seem a lot more worrying with sequences like LLWLLWLLW, where any one of those winning bets could have spelled a bit loss if the result had gone the other way. As each loss would cost around 1.000 to 100 starting stakes, and the profits for the month are around the same figure, lets hope that the 4 losers in a row doesn’t happen more than once every couple of months…
Does anyone know how long the FTW2 has been tested for?
I don’t want to be gloomy about it, just trying to avoid any nasty surprises.
Regards
MC
MC, don’t quote me on this but I don’t think FTW2 has been around that long. Joe has said to me that although there are a lot more winners with this system, the fact there are more selections keeps the profit reasonable.
I have to say that I’ve read the system and it makes perfect sense to me. The simple selection criteria are things that are all too often overlooked by backers thinking they’re onto a good thing. At the price a lot will win, but I’d suggest a lot more will lose!
We’re planning a test in the near future so stay tuned for our thoughts…
Hi Craig,
Thanks for that. I’m still curious about how FTW2 will do over time. I checked out the Adrian Massey stats with all the FTW2 filters on it and I can’t see how it can survive the inevitable losing runs. In 2007 and 2008 there were 641 runners within the FTW2 parameters, and 364 went on to win.so a 56% strike rate. That would give the lay side a 44% strike rate.
Losing runs:
1 win in a row 77 times
2 wins in a row 45 times
3 wins in a row 26 times
4 wins in a row 8 times
5 wins in a row 3 times
6 wins in a row 6 times
7 wins in a row 1 time
8 wins in a row 1 time
9 wins in a row 1 time
12 wins in a row 1 time
Overall, 17 times the FTW2 qualifiers hit a losing run of 4 (I counted 12 in a row as 4 X 3) in the last year and a half, that is an average of nearly 2 a month. So far the results suggest that profits over a month without a losing run of 4 are around 1,300 to 100 stakes and a blowout costs just over 1000. I can’t see how it can work over time. Have I missed something? My maths is awful and I tend to make very basic mistakes, but I have gone over these figures and they seem OK.
What do you think?
Regards
MC
1 win and 5 losses for FTW2 today! With a starting stake of £25 I should have lost £408 while I managed to lower it to £75, since I traded the last 2. So I feel quite lucky, but it doesn’t look so good for FTW2: two bad losses in only 3 days. Time to go paper trading perhaps?
Had a horrible run over here as well. The most galling thing is that I am hitting the maximum bet all too often and even when this one wins you have a loss for the series. It is psychologically draining pushing money in to bet against red hot favourites in generally uncompetitive races and having them win so often.
Maybe more filters can be used, like if the odds drift out or the other horse odds make the race competitive.
Indeed the results are not promising of late, maybe an unlucky time to join but I started trading on 9th May and am currently showing a loss on the account of £-1751 to £100 stakes.
I will give a while before I call it a day but it will have to be some turn around to pick it back up. The principles are sound but that doesnt always make a good stratergy.
As Lynn stated yesterday was particulatly poor, but in the 8days I have layed it has included one 5loss run and one 4loss run. The bank will struggle to recoup this i think!
I will keep you posted on next weeks results.
Cheers
Mark
Lynn, Sorry forgot to mention OPTION A only.
Just to note that my loss assumes my selection criteria have been correct and I have been matched on the same horses as Four the Win.
I understand Joe is on holiday at the moment so the results page has not been updated.
Cheers
Mark
@ MC
I’m concerned about your results since I only own FTW2 and last few days’ results, bar what a few days is worth, seem to agree with you. I’m just curious, did you do anything similar for FTW? If yes, what results did you get? Thank you
P.S. According to what you say it seems like FTW2 could be a good backing system!
I think some of you are talking about different things here.
Just to clarify - it’s only the original Four The Win system we’ve used and that’s what this review refers to. I think Craig is going to run a system test on the second version soon and I’ll take a look at the stats you posted this week MC. I haven’t used the second version, so I can’t comment about it yet as I’m not even sure what the rules are.
Hi All,
Well, I realised in the middle of the night that I had included the lower priced horses (1/2 and under) which doesn’t come into FTW2, so I’m glad I offered a health warning to my mathematical/statistical abilities. Here are the updated stats, which are better, but I’m still wary of the staking plan:
Over 2007 and 2008
526 bets with 275 wins 52.3% strike rate - and a win% at Betfair prices of 92.5% which is good news for layers as even factoring in a 5% commission there is a profit margin of 2.5%.
OK, now to the revised losing runs (and please go to Adrian Massey and confirm this if you have time as I am notorious for getting these things wrong!)
1 winner in a row 72 times
2 winners 34 times
3 winners 16 times
4 winners 7 times
5 winners 3 times
6 winnners 2 times
7 winners 3 times
11 winners 1 time
Giving a tally of 17 losers in a row (counting the 11 X 1 as 2 in a row).
There were 17 months between the beginning of 2007 and May 2008, so one blowout a month would leave the system at about break even, depending on the price of the 4 losses in a row and how much profit is made per month without a losing sequence.
I’d be interested to hear what Joe from FTW has to say, as he does seem like the kind of bloke who does his sums, so I am sure when he gets back from holiday he’ll shed more light on the process behind his selections.
Apologies for my error earlier.
Regards
MC.
I guess we should keep in mind that Joe @ FTW has said that a four-in-a-row loss is something that last happened 2 years ago, before this April (in which it happened twice). According to MC’s research, this happened 7 times. We have to hope MC is wrong!
…and look forward to Joe’s input when he returns.
Hi everyone, it’s Joe from FTW. I’m back from hols and won’t have much time to
write here until tomorrow so I’ll be quick…
@ NH - The four in a row loss I refer to is for FTW1 where it only happened
once in 2 years. This is not for FTW2 which is currently available.
@ MC - Your figures are interesting and by using your figures and doing some
quick maths have resulted in the following assuming £100 Fibonacci stakes with
5% Betfair commission. Don’t forget we do not go higher than the 5point stake
in the fibonacci sequence so the 6 winners and 7 winners would not be
continuous losses from the fib sequence and would results in a further 1, 2,
3, or 4 winner for those figures profit (hence why I have removed them here):
1 winner in a row 72 times = £95*72 = £6840
2 winners 34 times = £190*34 = £6460
3 winners 16 times = £285*16 = £4560
4 winners 7 times = £475*7 = £3325
5 winners 3 times = (11 point loss depends on odds matched however for example
sake using 14 point loss) = -£1400*3 = -£4200
11 winners 1 time = -£1400*1 = -£1400
Total therefore is £15,585 profit. Obviously this would vary depending on the
odds that were matched but gives some valadity of the longer term profits.
Hi Joe,
Your figures hav’nt taken into account the sums lost on the losing bets, for example with one winner showing up you would already have lost 100 (assuming the odds were 2.0) on that. Your next bet would be 200 which wins 190 after 5% commission, take off the 100 loss which makes a profit of 90.
90 X 72 = + 6480 profit
With two winners on the trot you would lose 100 on the first & 200 on the second (again assuming odds at 2.0) total -300
Your next bet would be 300 which wins giving you 300 - 5% commission =285 so you have now made a loss on this sequence of 15 pounds.
15 X 34 = 510 loss
If you do this calculation through the whole of the example given this gives you a total loss of 6820.
Jacq
All,
It does appear this thread has been overtaken by comments on FTW2 rather than FTW1, if the mod’s do not want anymore posting, by all means please delete this.
In looking at the Adrian Massey site you have to be carefull to remove all the selection that dont meet the criteria, as you cannot do this by default on the website, i.e. No of runners, prices etc.
Anyway long story short I popped it all in an excel spreadsheet and filtered everything out, run results from 2007 to present.
£-861 to level stakes (£100)
£-7705 to advised progresive stakes
Anyone wants to check my spreadsheet, let me know, more than happy to send it on.
Cheers
Mark
Mark
Good for a change to see someone really get down to it and do their factual research. I have seen similar results off using different database.
However my question is:
Where are the stats showing that the long term data from fillies only (without any other criteria such as race type,etc) within this system price range are sufficiently bias to overcome the betfair deficit?
Its also pretty easy to produce selective data showing quite the opposite for fillies!
I have never seen the data or heard mention of it in support of the system.
@ Jacq - Yes you are quite right and I feel stupid for not including the losing selections in my results. In my post holiday daze I seemed to have forgotten that rather important point!
I will check the past results myself when I get a chance for FTW2.
I am updating the FTW2 manual this week with an aim to increase the strike rate and therefore lower the chance odds of 4 race losing runs. May I just add in my defense that I have run a less selective version of FTW 2 since the beginning of this year (which led to me releasing FTW2) which has a 4 race losing run about once a month. However the short winning streaks and number of selections have ensured continous profit since then. Therefore with a more selective process (as is FTW2) I expect a more profitable system with FTW2.
FTW1 continues to profit and has done for a couple of years. This is also not fool proof (and no system is) as we recently had a losing run on that too in April, however long term profits have been generated every month bar one with FTW1.
In addition the FTW Football system earnt me over £21,000 this season.
I have trust in and use these systems myself with real money, real loses and real profits. I have faith in each of them and my aim is to help cusomers make money with them too. I would not release any material if I knew this would not be the case and will strive to ensure FTW2 is tweaked until customers are happy with it. Up until I went away (11th May) it was showing profit of over £2000. I appreciate that I have missed a bad run while on holiday and was fortunate myself to have misses it, though I still would have faith in it if I were matched on those losing bets.
Joe,
Look forward to seeing the said improvements/tweaks on the current FTW2 it does show a commitment to your product, and I’m sure the website will be updated in due coarse.
I think you will find that my research on the historical results are quite accurate, If you would like me to pass them on for your comparison please let me know.
I alao agree that the FTW Football is without doubt profitable, although the figures quoted are to stakes most people would find unpalatable.
Also a shame we dont have a forum to discuss the FTW series officially, im sure we could learn a lot from each other.
Thanks for your time, speak soon.
Cheers
Mark
Hi Joe,
Just want to say how much I appreciate the fact that you are willing to come and post on this forum. I don’t think there are many system sellers out there who would.
Regards
MC
@ Mark - Yes I am committed to the systems and of course to my customers making money. I do believe your results and may take you up on your offer to check them over when I have a bit more time! I also ran past results through the database and ended up with differing results to yours so I am not 100% convinced of the accuracy of the database, having said that it would be easy for one of us to use a different parameter and therefore end up with varying results. I hope you will look forward to the tweaked version in the future and profit from it nicely.
You are right about the FTW Football stakes. To achieve that profit I did need large stakes and I can never bring myself to watch the games! However if your bank is built up of winnings rather than earnings it is certainly easier to cope with. Even with 10% of those stakes which I’m sure most people could use, it is £2100 profit per season for very, very little work.
Thanks Mark.
@ MC - Thanks for your comment and in return appreciate your appreciation!
Just picking up MC’s idea about the forum. I’m sure that many of us would be interested and it could be one more way for Joe to advertise his products. Would it be hard to set one up? Sharing ideas and updating results in real time would probably benefit the system. On the other hand, would there be a real risk to have too many people using it so affecting the odds in the end? Have you already evaluated this, Joe?
Joe,
All good stuff to hear and I look forward to receiving the next edition of FTWF which I will be giving a go to the £100 mark. I do agree that over £2k for the small amount of work is fantastic, and apologise if I came across as anything other than supportive.
Cheers
Mark
@ Lynn - Funnily enough I was looking into a forum earlier in the year and only got so far before I decided against it. However seeing as there are many users now of both FTW’s it may be worthwhile persuing again, especially in the light of future developments that you are unaware of!
I did have a customer who was technically minded request that they set this up for me and have a portal where customers can talk in real time as well as sharing their real time screens with other users etc. I may get back in touch with them and see what they say. In the mean time atleast we have this excellent site to communicate!
@ Mark - I didn’t think you were coming across unsupportive mate! It’s always good to hear peoples opinions, success, strategies etc and the best way to help me get feedback to improve the service for all of us. Thanks for your input!
I will be adding the 2008/09 FTWF teams in the next month or so to the updated ebook that you will be sent automatically. An additional point for next year also is the change of stake for the first few and last few games of the season. These are traditionally very unpredictable and I will alter to use 50% lower stakes for these as it is usually those times of the season we have a few upsets and prevents the profits from being higher than they are.
Cheers!
Can anyone say how both systems are performing? I stopped using FTW2 because of its several losing strikes too close to each other, to wait for the update to the system by Joe. I was curious to know how other people are getting on with them. Thank you
Just check the results page on the Four The Win website Lynn….. it’s all there.
Paul,
Well I’m sorry but I’m afraid it certainly isn’t “all there”.
I can see quite a few omissions even on the days where results have been posted for. And to miss out all selections from the 10th. May to the 20th….well.
As most people know this was a very, very poor period for the system.
It’s simply not good enough to say well Joe was on holiday then so that doesn’t count.
To give the full picture I’m sure members who have been following the system could have been contacted for the results during this period. There may be a few instances where opinions differ & some got prices where others didn’t but the one’s where there was agreement could have been used.
To be honest reading the results as given & comparing with my own gives me no confidence whatsoever in the past results claimed…..What do others think ?
Jacq
Hi Jacq,
Sorry, all I did this morning was look at the results page and check the last date. I see what you mean now.
I can confirm that the results from FTW1 were always correct when it was available, but since it was taken off the market I haven’t paid any attention to what’s on the results page. No-one can buy it any longer so it’s kind of irrelevant now.
And I can’t speak for FTW2 as I’ve never used it. We’ve never tested or reviewed it, so I couldn’t even tell you what the rules are….
~ Paul
@ All the people filling my inbox with hate mail!
I did think long and hard about the results page for the FTW’s and decided that I would continue using my results as I have done from the start. I have said a million times that the results are those I was matched on at the odds I was matched, win or lose. I infact have done exactly nothing different to what I’ve always done (I missed a period in December for example where the results were good) but because the results were not favourable this time people are giving me grief for it. If the results were good I’m sure no-one would be compaining that the period between 10th - 20th was missing.
I know I was fortunate to miss out on a losing streak while I was away but if every horse was a winning bet I would likely have still left it. A problem also is that even if I borrow someones results they are still going to be different to others and still people will complain so I decided to use my own as usual. If you could see the messages in my inbox you will soon begin to realise this fact. I’ve had people requesting a refund for FTW football - WHICH IS FREE! That made £21k last season.
Anyway I’m going off in a tangent now and my blood is boiling. I have been making a living from the systems I share with people and quit my job in 2007. To make sure you succeed you have to take the losses on the chin and the wins will come, don’t forget rule number one - don’t bet what you can’t afford. For those of you who are so short sighted and send me hate mail after one days betting please give up this game alltogether you are not cut out for it. For those FTW2 customers who are unhappy, if you like I will send you FTW1 for free - email me your receipt and a message saying so and I’ll forward it to you.
If someone wants to take the liberty of collating everyones results for FTW1 and FTW2 and work out an average to put on the site then I will happily upload them to the results but I certainly havent got time to do it myself.
Joe
Sadley as Jacq stated it is not acceptable, I was unavailable to bet on the 18th and 19th, but from the 11th to the 17th the my results were….
£-2203
Basically wiping out the profit shown on the website and then some, I think it has been agreed on here that there was a two four running loss (£-2200)
I will email Joe my spreadsheet and urge others to do the same.
The historical stats do not add up, but we will see how it goes.
It is a shame Joe seems to have enough time to send mail shots for more systems but not enough time to update the website correctly.
I’m sure he will remedy this in due coarse, once he has received all the results from his customers.
Cheers
Mark
Joe,
The people who are abusing you and requesting a refund are unfortunatley very short sighted, and I imagine you are rightly miffed at these people, I think I am hopefully one of many who doesn’t really care for a refund, you pays your money you take the risk! nor does loosing a few quid matter.
What I think is very fair is as you said to update the website correctly, and you deserve credit for that, so if anyone one like to send me DETAILED results from the dates missing I will gladley compare them with my own and take the averages for you.
gmarkg123@googlemail.com
Cheers
Mark
@ Joe - if you intend to keep the results online you probably should update them, because it isn’t good to have them there when they’re missing two weeks or whatever.
However, in Joe’s defence, I’ve got to say that from all of the system vendors we’ve dealt with since starting this site Joe has been the most honest, the friendliest by far, and without a doubt the most conscientious when it comes to his customers. He’s actually been playing down his results (when so many others do the opposite) over and over again in the time we’ve dealt with him. There has been numerous times when a potential selection - that got beat - didn’t show up in his results even though Craig and I both got matched, but when we questioned Joe about it he told us that he wasn’t sure everyone would have been on it so he didn’t include it.
You know, it’s rare - almost unheard of - for that to happen, so I wouldn’t beat him up about the fact that the last couple of weeks haven’t been so good. The average odds of the selections is only about 1/1 so you’ve got to expect runs where it isn’t going to work in your favour. That’s just life and in the long run I think he’s got a solid little system for pointing you in the direction of (very) short-priced favourites who simply shouldn’t be backed. That fact alone (and you should read between the lines of what I just said there) makes it a worthwhile addition to your betting portfolio.
To be honest Joe, now that FTW1 is no longer available I would just remove any reference to it from your site. There isn’t any point in keeping it there now when it’s no longer for sale….
I’ll second what Mark and Paul have said about this. You’ve always been friendly to deal with Joe and transparent about your systems, I wouldn’t let the mockers get you down.
I prematurely increased my stakes to £150 soon after starting using the first version of Four The Win after making a great profit in my first 2 or 3 weeks. I’ve taken a few knocks since but a lot of the winners have been heavy odds-on so it doesn’t concern me greatly. My logic is that if I can make even 25% or 30% of what’s happened in the last 6 months the £40 I invested in your system will be still be worth many times more than that every month. I think that’s easily achievable.
On the subject of betting portfolios, for the last three years I’ve operated a portfolio of about a dozen systems, some months they all perform well and I make the proverbial fortune, other months only a few do and I make a decent profit. Only on two occasions in the last three years have I had losing months by taking the portfolio approach, even when some systems have had terrible months, but I take a longterm view with each of them, whereas many people appear to take a very short term view. If you buy a system you should be prepared to run it for at least 6 months using the recommended staking and bank, doing it for a week, or a few days won’t tell you anything about anything.
I read a post on another horse racing forum this week from someone who purchased a system, one I use, and requested a refund after TWO DAYS because “it didn’t work”!!! I’ve been averaging 8 points profit a month from this system for the last two years and it’s consistent as hell, making me about £800 clear a month, every month, but you don’t make money every day with it. If you’re going to judge a system after two days results, two weeks, or even two months, you shouldn’t be buying systems, full stop.
My advice for anyone who is feeling frustrated is to start building a portfolio and operate them in the same way you would a shares portfolio. When you do that a bad month from one system doesn’t hurt you, because the others generally make up the deficit. It’s rare that nothing performs, no matter what you use. This is the professional way to do it and in my eyes it’s the only way you’ll make the transition from a wannabe to a full-time backer/layer. When anyone asks what I do now I tell them I’m a trader. My friends all think it’s amazing that I don’t have to work for a living but I do work - I buy and sell prices on horse racing markets like I used to do on the FTSE. It’s the same thing, with different products.
Anyone can do this but you have to be prepared to set up your “working capital” and leave it for that use only. You then need to build your portfolio and stick with it. Take stock of how you’re doing on a monthly basis but don’t go into panic mode if the stuff hits the fan one month, what you’re looking for is a natural progression over a period of time. If you’re starting with a few hundred or a thousand you need to know that going full-time won’t happen instantly but it can happen if you stay focused.
That’s enough rabbling for one night. I just wanted to add some support to Joe and offer some advice for those of you who have been worrying about a couple of weeks results. The moral of the story is that if you’re ever feeling like you’re in a desperate position after a few days or weeks of using something then a change of career, or a new hobby, would be advisable.
Yep, well said Jeremy, I am also of the school that you can never have enough information and take the good times and the bad times.
I have a huge amount of sympathy for people like Joe who are GENUINE and sell their systems with support, sure he’s making money but there are some people who do that and then give no support or even reply to questions.
To give people an idea, I have been laying horse successfully since the beginning of 2004, however around December 05 January 06 the bank lost around 40points! When you lose that amount in a short period you begin to wonder, but patience and time is the key to any successful system, the bank recovered over the next few months and I have a ROI of around 7.9% on a 500k turnover.
But based on the above, if I were to sell the system it would all come crashing down with idiots complaining when there is a downturn!
Another point which has been said many times on this site is to keep meticulous records, only then can you track progress, It’s not hard but some people just don’t bother and then when they hit a losing run, they don’t have the benefit of looking into the past to see it is probably just a glitch on a path to profit.
Anyway chin up Joe I’m sure the bank will recover in the coming weeks/months, I just hope we can make people understand they need to look at the long term benefits.
Cheers
Mark
@ Jeremy, just interested, which systems do you use as part of your portfolio. The difficulty I have is knowing when a good system is having a glitch or whether the system just doesn’t work long term. How do you assess which is which?
Regards
MC
Hi Joe,
Don’t let them get you down! I for one really appreciate your integrity, and anyone who has had any dealings with you can see that you care about your product and your customers. I very much appreciate your generosity, too, with sharing your footy system (which I am looking forward to using next season!). I guess you could just see the unpleasant hatemail as another sort of long losing run in your career as a seller - and know that, in the long term, your good name will stand the test of time.
warmly,
MC
MC, perhaps Jeremy will be able to explain this better than me, but with systems you just ‘know’ when it’s a good system, and when it’s not. Really it comes with experience.
I feel everyone’s pain with FTW - I have lost a fair bit of cash myself with the recent run, but fair play to Joe, he has always said the results posted are HIS personal results and I don’t think he’d have taken the decision to leave the week he was away likely. He’d have known he’d be in for a barrage of abuse, but that’s the way he’s always done it so to change it would be wrong in my opinion. I haven’t and won’t stop using FTW because it makes perfect sense to me, and I’m sure this is just a bad patch.
Hi Craig,
I don’t t hink I know anything in this business! I think, being very new to it all, the best I can do is try and think of ways it won’t work and if they don’t convince me I go ahead, but I still struggle a lot with continuing through a losing patch. I can see why so few people do succeed at making money at this because it really is human nature to give up when it goes sour - and by it’s nature, betting goes through winining and losing cycles. Perhaps just knowing when a system is good comes with a lot of experience - which is why I find this site so invaluable.
Regards
MC
MC, that’s where so many people fail! A few bad days, a bad week, and maybe even a bad month and System X is binned and forgotten about. They then miss out when System X goes on to have 6 excellent months afterwards!
As I said, it will come with experience. What you are doing just now in trying to work an argument for a system not to work is a very good way to start it. Trust your own judgement on these things first and if you’re still unsure, come to us
Well for those that have persevered through the bad patch should now be gaining their rewards with the FTW systems.
FTW1 for both options are about £2000 up for June and FTW2 is having an incredible run [though I hope I have not just jinxed it!] at £1990 profit in June having won 19 from the last 24! Good times.
The bad runs we had in May were certainly freak runs that I had not had before, well for FTW1 anyway, obviously FTW2 doesn’t have much history…
Anybody else just bust out again on FTW1?
Just want to make sure I didn’t miss a bet somewhere…..
27th June 19:15 Chester Cornish Rose Lost
19:55 Newcastle Persian Pea Lost
28th June 20:15 Doncaster Caprivi Lost
29th June 15:05 Windsor Heaven Lost
Cheers
Mark
Hi Mark,
Yes me too,
I had Persian Sea on the 27th. then on the 28th.
My Aunt Fanny (Chest. 4.00)
Mrs Kipling, (Ling. 7.20)
Caprivi, (Donc. 8.15)
Heaven, (Wind. 3.05) on the 29th.
Still, looking on the bright side I’m still in profit (just) from the 29th. of last month.
Jacq
Thanks for the confirmation Jacq.
I’m slightly down on June, and had a very bad May as has been well documented.
I have no reason to doubt Joe’s previous results but I dont think this year is going to profit the same as previous years.
Shame….
Cheers
Mark
Yes,a 4 in a row bust.Again.That’s two in ten weeks on option A and three for option B.Thank God I’m not doing FTW2 .Since I began in early April, I’m well down,would have to dig out my records,but I agree.If I break even with this one for the remainder of the year I’ll be happy.His previous results look a bit pie-in-the-sky when you see how this has performed this year.I think we can forget the sales pitch on his main page for starters.Too many system sellers do this and I’m pig sick of it,to be honest.
And there has been far too many brown trouser moments too:three losses in a row going to the fourth bet - this has happened three or four times at least in the past few weeks.If these last gasp clawbacks had went the other way,resulting in another 4-in-a-row bust,we’d be in serious brown stuff.
His last posting on here claiming persevering customers have now reaped the rewards now looks tiresome to say the least.Looks like the waste bucket for this one,I’m afraid.
His much touted backing system which is almost ready for release? Lead balloon too, I think.
Its just not a good time for laying, i personally wont be betting this system until Aug, possibly Sept. P Pro
I dont know where to go now I have done x1 x1.5 x2 x3 x5 whats next. Could you really have 6 on the trot, I guess you could…..Is this system really good ??
Trader
Do you guys think this system would work on just level bets ??
Trader
Trader, I don’t think FTW would work out with level stakes, I think it’s the staking plan that makes this system, although I appreciate it’s not been great of late.
I’ve had a lot of other commitments lately and so haven’t been using it day to day, but I’ve been keeping an eye on Joe’s results, which did seem to pick up for a bit there. Personally, I still really like the system, but I think this may just be hard time of year for it as Paul Pro said. It might be worth waiting until August/September time before starting again.
If this was a hard time of year, you would expect to see similar results for this time last year which I don’t think you do.
I’ve just started with Back the Win. Got a winner in race one and then had 4 second places. Won on the 5th and final race in the sequence but still made a loss for the sequence. Currently £5 down but it’s early days. I figured it was worth £15 for the first month of tips.
Has anyone seen his Japanese football system?
The results he posts on his page are pie in the sky. He quotes winning net of BF commission but his odds are bookmaker prices. This is a laying system so there’s the usual problem / issue there.
I sent Joe a detailed spreadsheet back testing / challenging his results. He had no answer to my questions and offered me a refund after a paper trade period.
I’m beginning to wonder about this guy and his operations. He claims he lost most of his historical data in a hardware / backup fault.
There’s just a niggling doubt in my mind that all is not what it seems with Joe…
What do others think?
Nah, I like Joe, a lot actually, Stewboss. He’s made very little selling his systems and I don’t think he’s out for the sale like most of them are. I honestly do think he’s a genuine bloke. Craig likes him too.
What’s the Japanese football system? Is that Ross or someone, the guy who sends out the mailshots all the time? Can’t actually remember his name now, just remember the impressive mailshots and one of those was about an Eastern syndicate or something.
The Japanses football system is on Joe’s site.
He sells it for £30 or similar.
Ah right, sorry I don’t know anything about that.
Yeah, I think Joe is a genuine guy it’s just that the system has not worked this year, and I mean year as he may show a profit on the website, but as has been documented here it misses out a terrible patch whilst he was on holiday.
This bad run takes it into the negative.
He did mute that he would update the results but it hasn’t happened yet, and probably won’t as it really is on a bad run.
It’s also a shame there are no detailed results from the year which made 28k
Cheers
Mark
Mark, I spoke to Joe the other day and he is having major broadband troubles, that’s why he’s not updated his site lately. I can’t remember when it’s due to be fixed, but I think it was around the second week in July, although don’t quote me on that
I wouldn’t stand for that sort of s**t service!
The results or the broadband malarkey???
When I talked to Joe he wasn’t best pleased about it as it had already been a couple of weeks he’d been having problems….I can’t remember which company it is, but I could dig the email out and check
Hey Guys thanks for the info. Can you tell me hat works for you. Is any of the stuff on this site good. I do like Betalay it seems to work??
Craig,
The results are pretty bang upto date, I don’t think we’ll ever see the run of bad results whilst he was on holiday as it would just look too bad for the system.
I don’t want to bad mouth Joe, I do however think the results are misleading to anyone happening upon his website without all the facts.
Cheers
Mark
Yes, I too doubt the transparency of his results.It’s easy to quote,say a 228 point yearly profit for a previous year,but there are no detailed results to back it up.It would be a simple matter,though rather timely,to dig them out from Betfair’s historical database?
It seems that this boy is going system selling crazy these past few weeks,with football systems,FTW ancillary systems, backing systems,tipping services,you name it he seems to have it.It is a veritable conveyer belt of systems!
RE Stewboss,there are good systems out there,I do quite a few,but FTW probably won’t be one of them - I’ve just lost too much from it.
On the flip side, Joe has apparently given up his day job and follows his own sytems for his income.
If this is the case he hasn’t earnt a great deal this year and is suffering with the rest of his customers.
This is obviously not withstanding the sales of the systems, which wouldn’t keep a roof over my head.
Cheers
Mark