Four The Win
There are laying systems in abundance these days. Some are good, some not so good, but every now and again you come across one that turns out to be absolutely exceptional and that’s exactly what happened to us this month.
When I first discovered Four The Win I was instantly impressed with both the simplicity of the system and the fact that it concentrates on hot favourites whose average odds are just 1/1. On top of that it takes just 10 minutes a day to find the selections, so straight away I could see we had an easily operated, potentially profitable, system on our hands.
This is what I had to say about it prior to starting our test:
I’m a big fan of the old ”Keep It Simple Stupid” adage when it comes to horse racing systems, because if a system has too many rules it’s almost certainly been backfitted and if this is the case, it’s highly unlikely that what happened in the past will continue to prove profitable in the future.
That’s a cold hard fact I’m afraid, so if you ever purchase a system and find that it’s practically unworkable in practice because of the number of rules involved, do yourself a favour and treat it with extreme caution. In the vast majority of cases it will save you time, effort and expense.
Someone who agrees with me on this is Joe from Four The Win.
Joe’s created a horse racing laying system that’s based on solid form-based principles, that’s simple in the extreme and that targets runners at the bottom end of the odds range, so unlike many of the laying systems I see nowadays, the odd winner here or there is never going to wipe out your betting bank. It’s a very selective system that quite simply highlights runners with a weak profile in races that are competitive enough to warrant taking them on.
This is exactly how bookmakers operate and if it’s your goal to succeed as a betting exchange layer, you could do worse than follow the time-proven principles of traditional bookmaking.
Joe’s system comes packaged in a short, well-written, 16 page ebook that explains everything you need to know clearly and concisely. You’ll know exactly what your selections are likely to be the evening before racing and the rules of the system are all very straightforward.
I’ll be testing Four The Win for the next month with a £1000 starting bank and I’ll be aiming to win £25 on each bet, using a non-aggressive version of the Fibonacci staking plan (as is advised in the book) to recoup losses from winning bets.
We then tested Four The Win for the full month of March (you can check the full results here) and to say we were impressed with what happened would be an understatement!
This is what Craig said when he wrote his final review:
Well, we’ve come to the end of the road for our months test of Four The Win and it’s been a fascinating month. When I first saw the system I was a little sceptical. There are only four simple rules to be followed, and although I could see the logic behind the system, I was a little apprehensive that the system would work at the prices we were laying at. Include a loss recovery staking plan and I had visions of money going down the tube - oh how wrong was I???
I have been astounded by the performance of Four The Win, and I do mean absolutely astounded. In the 30 days of testing we made 16 points profit, and when you consider the average odds we were laying at were evens, and that a large amount of selections were actually odds on, that is simply amazing. We returned a 41.5% profit on our bank, which is a huge ROI and again at the odds is, quite simply, outstanding!
Bare in mind that this is a system that will take you ten minutes a day to find your selections and you have what must be one of the most simple, straightforward, yet ultimately rewarding systems I have seen.
It’s no secret that I’m a big fan of laying, and some of the systems I’ve used in the past have had good success laying at the higher end of the odds market, but at that end you will be laying over the odds and a winner can cause a bit of a dent in your profits, but with Four The Win the odds are almost always within a couple of percent of official SP and often will beat SP because its all hot, hot favourites we’re laying.
So, to sum up, Four The Win is a laying system that lays at an average price of evens, uses a sensible loss recovery plan (which only twice did we go as far as the 3rd bet), has a strike rate in the region of 70% (meaning it will profit at level stakes) and is incredibly easy to operate. Add in the fact that Joe has provided us with excellent customer service, offers a tipping email service, and was only too willing to answer any of our queries and I have no choice but to give Four The Win….
…..FIVE OUT OF FIVE!
Now, some of you might look at the 16 points profit we generated and not be overly impressed with that, but in terms of return on investment this has exceeded everything we’ve ever reviewed on here multiple times over. Keep in mind that many laying systems target runners at 5/1, 6/1, or even 8/1, so your liabilities are 5x, 6x, or 8x higher than with Four The Win. This means that if you were operating on a liability basis you could effectively use 5x, 6x, or 8x larger stakes and when you look at it that way, the returns from this system are absolutely HUGE!
I can honestly say that I haven’t come across anything as appealing as this before. It pinpoints short priced favourites who lose with amazing accuracy and takes just 10 minutes a day to find them, so if you’ve been searching for something that’s extremely easy to operate, profitable in the extreme, and that won’t have you quaking in your boots every time one of your lay bets goes and wins, then look no further than Four The Win.
This one is the business - I love it!
Until next time,
Online Betting Exposed
Trader, I don’t think FTW would work out with level stakes, I think it’s the staking plan that makes this system, although I appreciate it’s not been great of late.
I’ve had a lot of other commitments lately and so haven’t been using it day to day, but I’ve been keeping an eye on Joe’s results, which did seem to pick up for a bit there. Personally, I still really like the system, but I think this may just be hard time of year for it as Paul Pro said. It might be worth waiting until August/September time before starting again.
Do you guys think this system would work on just level bets ??
Trader
I dont know where to go now I have done x1 x1.5 x2 x3 x5 whats next. Could you really have 6 on the trot, I guess you could…..Is this system really good ??
Trader
Its just not a good time for laying, i personally wont be betting this system until Aug, possibly Sept. P Pro
Yes,a 4 in a row bust.Again.That’s two in ten weeks on option A and three for option B.Thank God I’m not doing FTW2 .Since I began in early April, I’m well down,would have to dig out my records,but I agree.If I break even with this one for the remainder of the year I’ll be happy.His previous results look a bit pie-in-the-sky when you see how this has performed this year.I think we can forget the sales pitch on his main page for starters.Too many system sellers do this and I’m pig sick of it,to be honest.
And there has been far too many brown trouser moments too:three losses in a row going to the fourth bet - this has happened three or four times at least in the past few weeks.If these last gasp clawbacks had went the other way,resulting in another 4-in-a-row bust,we’d be in serious brown stuff.
His last posting on here claiming persevering customers have now reaped the rewards now looks tiresome to say the least.Looks like the waste bucket for this one,I’m afraid.
His much touted backing system which is almost ready for release? Lead balloon too, I think.
Thanks for the confirmation Jacq.
I’m slightly down on June, and had a very bad May as has been well documented.
I have no reason to doubt Joe’s previous results but I dont think this year is going to profit the same as previous years.
Shame….
Cheers
Mark
Hi Mark,
Yes me too,
I had Persian Sea on the 27th. then on the 28th.
My Aunt Fanny (Chest. 4.00)
Mrs Kipling, (Ling. 7.20)
Caprivi, (Donc. 8.15)
Heaven, (Wind. 3.05) on the 29th.
Still, looking on the bright side I’m still in profit (just) from the 29th. of last month.
Jacq
Anybody else just bust out again on FTW1?
Just want to make sure I didn’t miss a bet somewhere…..
27th June 19:15 Chester Cornish Rose Lost
19:55 Newcastle Persian Pea Lost
28th June 20:15 Doncaster Caprivi Lost
29th June 15:05 Windsor Heaven Lost
Cheers
Mark
Well for those that have persevered through the bad patch should now be gaining their rewards with the FTW systems.
FTW1 for both options are about £2000 up for June and FTW2 is having an incredible run [though I hope I have not just jinxed it!] at £1990 profit in June having won 19 from the last 24! Good times.
The bad runs we had in May were certainly freak runs that I had not had before, well for FTW1 anyway, obviously FTW2 doesn’t have much history…
MC, that’s where so many people fail! A few bad days, a bad week, and maybe even a bad month and System X is binned and forgotten about. They then miss out when System X goes on to have 6 excellent months afterwards!
As I said, it will come with experience. What you are doing just now in trying to work an argument for a system not to work is a very good way to start it. Trust your own judgement on these things first and if you’re still unsure, come to us
Hi Craig,
I don’t t hink I know anything in this business! I think, being very new to it all, the best I can do is try and think of ways it won’t work and if they don’t convince me I go ahead, but I still struggle a lot with continuing through a losing patch. I can see why so few people do succeed at making money at this because it really is human nature to give up when it goes sour - and by it’s nature, betting goes through winining and losing cycles. Perhaps just knowing when a system is good comes with a lot of experience - which is why I find this site so invaluable.
Regards
MC
MC, perhaps Jeremy will be able to explain this better than me, but with systems you just ‘know’ when it’s a good system, and when it’s not. Really it comes with experience.
I feel everyone’s pain with FTW - I have lost a fair bit of cash myself with the recent run, but fair play to Joe, he has always said the results posted are HIS personal results and I don’t think he’d have taken the decision to leave the week he was away likely. He’d have known he’d be in for a barrage of abuse, but that’s the way he’s always done it so to change it would be wrong in my opinion. I haven’t and won’t stop using FTW because it makes perfect sense to me, and I’m sure this is just a bad patch.
Hi Joe,
Don’t let them get you down! I for one really appreciate your integrity, and anyone who has had any dealings with you can see that you care about your product and your customers. I very much appreciate your generosity, too, with sharing your footy system (which I am looking forward to using next season!). I guess you could just see the unpleasant hatemail as another sort of long losing run in your career as a seller - and know that, in the long term, your good name will stand the test of time.
warmly,
MC
@ Jeremy, just interested, which systems do you use as part of your portfolio. The difficulty I have is knowing when a good system is having a glitch or whether the system just doesn’t work long term. How do you assess which is which?
Regards
MC
Yep, well said Jeremy, I am also of the school that you can never have enough information and take the good times and the bad times.
I have a huge amount of sympathy for people like Joe who are GENUINE and sell their systems with support, sure he’s making money but there are some people who do that and then give no support or even reply to questions.
To give people an idea, I have been laying horse successfully since the beginning of 2004, however around December 05 January 06 the bank lost around 40points! When you lose that amount in a short period you begin to wonder, but patience and time is the key to any successful system, the bank recovered over the next few months and I have a ROI of around 7.9% on a 500k turnover.
But based on the above, if I were to sell the system it would all come crashing down with idiots complaining when there is a downturn!
Another point which has been said many times on this site is to keep meticulous records, only then can you track progress, It’s not hard but some people just don’t bother and then when they hit a losing run, they don’t have the benefit of looking into the past to see it is probably just a glitch on a path to profit.
Anyway chin up Joe I’m sure the bank will recover in the coming weeks/months, I just hope we can make people understand they need to look at the long term benefits.
Cheers
Mark
I’ll second what Mark and Paul have said about this. You’ve always been friendly to deal with Joe and transparent about your systems, I wouldn’t let the mockers get you down.
I prematurely increased my stakes to £150 soon after starting using the first version of Four The Win after making a great profit in my first 2 or 3 weeks. I’ve taken a few knocks since but a lot of the winners have been heavy odds-on so it doesn’t concern me greatly. My logic is that if I can make even 25% or 30% of what’s happened in the last 6 months the £40 I invested in your system will be still be worth many times more than that every month. I think that’s easily achievable.
On the subject of betting portfolios, for the last three years I’ve operated a portfolio of about a dozen systems, some months they all perform well and I make the proverbial fortune, other months only a few do and I make a decent profit. Only on two occasions in the last three years have I had losing months by taking the portfolio approach, even when some systems have had terrible months, but I take a longterm view with each of them, whereas many people appear to take a very short term view. If you buy a system you should be prepared to run it for at least 6 months using the recommended staking and bank, doing it for a week, or a few days won’t tell you anything about anything.
I read a post on another horse racing forum this week from someone who purchased a system, one I use, and requested a refund after TWO DAYS because “it didn’t work”!!! I’ve been averaging 8 points profit a month from this system for the last two years and it’s consistent as hell, making me about £800 clear a month, every month, but you don’t make money every day with it. If you’re going to judge a system after two days results, two weeks, or even two months, you shouldn’t be buying systems, full stop.
My advice for anyone who is feeling frustrated is to start building a portfolio and operate them in the same way you would a shares portfolio. When you do that a bad month from one system doesn’t hurt you, because the others generally make up the deficit. It’s rare that nothing performs, no matter what you use. This is the professional way to do it and in my eyes it’s the only way you’ll make the transition from a wannabe to a full-time backer/layer. When anyone asks what I do now I tell them I’m a trader. My friends all think it’s amazing that I don’t have to work for a living but I do work - I buy and sell prices on horse racing markets like I used to do on the FTSE. It’s the same thing, with different products.
Anyone can do this but you have to be prepared to set up your “working capital” and leave it for that use only. You then need to build your portfolio and stick with it. Take stock of how you’re doing on a monthly basis but don’t go into panic mode if the stuff hits the fan one month, what you’re looking for is a natural progression over a period of time. If you’re starting with a few hundred or a thousand you need to know that going full-time won’t happen instantly but it can happen if you stay focused.
That’s enough rabbling for one night. I just wanted to add some support to Joe and offer some advice for those of you who have been worrying about a couple of weeks results. The moral of the story is that if you’re ever feeling like you’re in a desperate position after a few days or weeks of using something then a change of career, or a new hobby, would be advisable.
@ Joe - if you intend to keep the results online you probably should update them, because it isn’t good to have them there when they’re missing two weeks or whatever.
However, in Joe’s defence, I’ve got to say that from all of the system vendors we’ve dealt with since starting this site Joe has been the most honest, the friendliest by far, and without a doubt the most conscientious when it comes to his customers. He’s actually been playing down his results (when so many others do the opposite) over and over again in the time we’ve dealt with him. There has been numerous times when a potential selection - that got beat - didn’t show up in his results even though Craig and I both got matched, but when we questioned Joe about it he told us that he wasn’t sure everyone would have been on it so he didn’t include it.
You know, it’s rare - almost unheard of - for that to happen, so I wouldn’t beat him up about the fact that the last couple of weeks haven’t been so good. The average odds of the selections is only about 1/1 so you’ve got to expect runs where it isn’t going to work in your favour. That’s just life and in the long run I think he’s got a solid little system for pointing you in the direction of (very) short-priced favourites who simply shouldn’t be backed. That fact alone (and you should read between the lines of what I just said there) makes it a worthwhile addition to your betting portfolio.
To be honest Joe, now that FTW1 is no longer available I would just remove any reference to it from your site. There isn’t any point in keeping it there now when it’s no longer for sale….
Joe,
The people who are abusing you and requesting a refund are unfortunatley very short sighted, and I imagine you are rightly miffed at these people, I think I am hopefully one of many who doesn’t really care for a refund, you pays your money you take the risk! nor does loosing a few quid matter.
What I think is very fair is as you said to update the website correctly, and you deserve credit for that, so if anyone one like to send me DETAILED results from the dates missing I will gladley compare them with my own and take the averages for you.
gmarkg123@googlemail.com
Cheers
Mark
Sadley as Jacq stated it is not acceptable, I was unavailable to bet on the 18th and 19th, but from the 11th to the 17th the my results were….
£-2203
Basically wiping out the profit shown on the website and then some, I think it has been agreed on here that there was a two four running loss (£-2200)
I will email Joe my spreadsheet and urge others to do the same.
The historical stats do not add up, but we will see how it goes.
It is a shame Joe seems to have enough time to send mail shots for more systems but not enough time to update the website correctly.
I’m sure he will remedy this in due coarse, once he has received all the results from his customers.
Cheers
Mark
@ All the people filling my inbox with hate mail!
I did think long and hard about the results page for the FTW’s and decided that I would continue using my results as I have done from the start. I have said a million times that the results are those I was matched on at the odds I was matched, win or lose. I infact have done exactly nothing different to what I’ve always done (I missed a period in December for example where the results were good) but because the results were not favourable this time people are giving me grief for it. If the results were good I’m sure no-one would be compaining that the period between 10th - 20th was missing.
I know I was fortunate to miss out on a losing streak while I was away but if every horse was a winning bet I would likely have still left it. A problem also is that even if I borrow someones results they are still going to be different to others and still people will complain so I decided to use my own as usual. If you could see the messages in my inbox you will soon begin to realise this fact. I’ve had people requesting a refund for FTW football - WHICH IS FREE! That made £21k last season.
Anyway I’m going off in a tangent now and my blood is boiling. I have been making a living from the systems I share with people and quit my job in 2007. To make sure you succeed you have to take the losses on the chin and the wins will come, don’t forget rule number one - don’t bet what you can’t afford. For those of you who are so short sighted and send me hate mail after one days betting please give up this game alltogether you are not cut out for it. For those FTW2 customers who are unhappy, if you like I will send you FTW1 for free - email me your receipt and a message saying so and I’ll forward it to you.
If someone wants to take the liberty of collating everyones results for FTW1 and FTW2 and work out an average to put on the site then I will happily upload them to the results but I certainly havent got time to do it myself.
Joe